Ep.41 – How To Get Through The Pain of Losing A Pet | PAWS, Reflect & Heal

SPEAKER_00: 0:07

Welcome everybody to a new episode of Pause, Reflect, and Heal. I hope you’re having a great holiday season, and we’re very, very happy to have you with us in our studio at the moment and looking to really share some information that I think is critically important. So, you know, stick by because this is a great show and you’re going to learn an awful lot. It’s a show about things that I deal with all the time, but I don’t know a lot about from the standpoint of our guest. And, you know, perhaps me offering a hug or letting them know I’m sorry is things that I can do, but this topic is going to be so helpful. Uh so we’re here with a real pro. Her name is Bonnie Goodman. She’s based in Northern California and has guided thousands of people through the grieving process when they lose their pet. Uh we will talk a lot about different aspects of the grieving process, but she understands all the different variables and situations and how they affect parents. So, Bonnie, tell us a little bit about yourself.

SPEAKER_01: 1:12

Hi, Randy. Thanks for having me on your show. So I have been in the counseling field for without aging myself at at least 40 years. And uh I moved into grief counseling uh I think in the year in 2000. And at that juncture, I was just working with with uh human loss, and in 2015 I lost my most favorite uh golden retriever, and that death was absolutely devastating for me. We had a very close bond. And as I tried to research uh resources to help myself beyond what I could read and print, uh I couldn’t find very much. Even therapists who were not dog-related or pet-related people didn’t quite get the nuances of grief and loss. So I went back to a program uh in grief and loss out of New York and got a certificate in that. And I’ve so I’ve been doing this work and human loss for a long time now.

SPEAKER_00: 2:21

So let me share with everybody, just to be totally transparent, this young lady and I go back a long ways. Uh we won’t say how long, but at least high school. And um, it’s so wonderful to still have her in my life and know what she’s doing. And and also, you know, our technician John responded that, you know, the fact that we took divergent paths to get almost to the same place is pretty cool, I think. So um it’s really exciting. Um, I want to start with um something that a client shared with me, which stuck with me because it made so much uh it made so much difference to me. He said that you know, when we become pet parents, we’re essentially signing a contract with grief, a timeline that we expect, you know, to outlive our pets. We don’t want that dog or cat to live without us because we know that they become attached and we become their pack, uh their world. So this is exactly the opposite of how it works with our kids sometimes. We want them to outlive us, then the thought of losing a child could be unbearable. I think we can all understand this. So when our pet passes and when the sense of loss is so profound, so painful by remembering that we’re supposed to give our pets the best life we and ultimately will outlive them, it helps a lot to know that we did our best and that we did it right. He said it feels like uh it gives a grief a sense of structure and meaning. How do you feel about that statement, Bonnie? Because I know that was really powerful for me.

SPEAKER_01: 3:48

Well, the the the connection between a human and a pet, it’s extraordinary. And we go into it knowing, as you were just describing, we go into it knowing that it’s not going to be a relationship that’s going to last forever. We know that with human loss, but much more reliably our pets, you know, die soon before us. And how that gets manifested in terms of our connection as as we get further into this talk, I’ll be describing why some people are more acutely attached to their pets than others and why grief is not the same for every person.

SPEAKER_00: 4:30

That that’s great. That’s really, really great. So let’s let’s hit on the first subject that we wanted to talk about. And um, you know, that this is called disenfranchised grief or the lack of validation. And one little story that I want to share, because I’m sure you’re so aware of this, but so many times my pet parents or guardians tell me, you know, I went to work and I told them that my pet passed away. And they said, Oh, well, you know, you can just get another one, and that’s where it’s left. And so sp speak to this disenfranchising of the grief process because I know you deal with this so much, and I love you to share that with our listeners.

SPEAKER_01: 5:09

Sure. It’s a very lonely uh type of grief, disenfranchised grief in terms of pets, you know, that’s kind of the one that comes to most people’s minds. It means that society does not sanction uh that kind of loss. And you gave a perfect example of that, whereby uh when you mention it at work, people think of replacing. And as we know, imagine if one went to work and told them that they had a child or a spouse that died, they would never get a reaction quite like that. And even within a family, it can be very disenfranchised. If one person, let’s say of a uh a couple, one is more uh intimately attached to their I’ll just say dog, um, than their other spouse. The other spouse doesn’t always understand the depth of that connection. And they may even say, as I’ve heard from many clients, you know, it’s time to move on, just get over it. The other thing that that really makes it uh uh more unique going again, I’m gonna be doing the comparing mine with human loss. With human loss, we have funerals. We uh have people come uh and sit with us afterwards. Uh depending on our religion, there are different customs related to that. And we don’t really have that with pet loss. So what does one do about that? Would you like me to speak to that, Randy?

SPEAKER_00: 6:47

Yes, definitely. Because I want uh pet owners to know how they can give themselves permission to feel this grief or this depth of loss, you know, without shame. I mean, I think that’s the most important thing. So please, yeah, by all means elucidate uh that for us.

SPEAKER_01: 7:01

Okay. So that’s the operative word. Most people with pet loss, at some point, they will uh be able to articulate that they feel this shame when it is not sanctioned or be credible with other people in their lives. Um so the most important thing is to be able to talk to somebody about it. It can be another family member, it can be, it can be a friend, it could be a support group. And I will be talking about, well, I’ll mention it now. There’s a wonderful online uh group, and this is where I got my training, it’s called the Association for Pet Loss and Bereavement, or APLB. And they have online chat groups, they have a way to memorialize your pet. Um, so any way to draw attention uh to the loss that’s very acceptable by individuals is going to make up for the lack of societal type of support.

SPEAKER_00: 8:09

You know, I have um most of our clients uh will choose to have uh their animals cremated in individual cremation where the ashes are returned in a beautiful urn or wood box or whatever. And I’ve had many clients um actually, you know, go with their their family members, their children, whoever’s involved in the family, and pick a spot like in the backyard, let’s say, and actually bury those cremanes. Um there was a guy in Tucson that was making these wonderful river rocks with the name of the pet carved in there and sometimes dates or or a saying or something like that. And it seemed like it really made a huge difference to their family to do this. So um, yeah, I get what you’re saying. I mean, not having that that group or that support. And then, of course, um mentioning this this internet group, which I hope we’ll mention towards the end again. And I know when we when we do this uh podcast, we’ll post that. So we’ll have that connection for everybody too. So that’s fabulous. Thank you for that. That’s great.

SPEAKER_01: 9:13

Sure. And people will also reach out to individual uh grief counselors to get the one-on-one support. And that’s why I hear where I hear all the stories about the difference between one spouse’s connection to the pet being different from another spouse’s and children, and we’ll get to talking about children later on, I know.

SPEAKER_00: 9:35

Definitely, definitely fabulous. And you know, um, when I was coming up through the ranks as a veterinarian, I my practice was in a retirement community for many years, and it was it was so touching that a lot of the um people who would lose a pet would say to me, you know, um I hardly grieve like this for my spouse, and I’m having such a hard time with the amount of grief that I’m feeling. And, you know, it even got to the point where, you know, there were a number of people that we were concerned about their physical well-being with this. Uh even committing suicide. It was mentioned a number of times, and and connecting them with a grief counselor or a group made a huge difference. So thanks for mentioning that too. That’s that’s really helpful.

SPEAKER_01: 10:19

Sure. It can be a profound loss. And as you said, uh well, I will say that some people grieve more for pets than humans in their lives. You’ll hear why and what what category I would put those people in. But I have had a couple clients over the years who have felt quite suicidal, thinking about not, you know, losing that connection and the physical, uh, the the literal physical body of their animal child.

SPEAKER_00: 10:52

Right, right. And I think that just that we’re talking about this and people that can listen to this um can give their their self permission to feel that grief and understand that you’re not alone. There, there are there are you know probably thousands of pet parents or guardians that go through this type of thing. So let let’s um let’s talk about like the you you talk about two stages of grief. Can we can we cover that and talk about that a little bit? Sure.

SPEAKER_01: 11:16

So uh there are actually six stages, but I’m just gonna briefly uh talk uh um not even gonna go into detail of any, but in terms of literal stages of grief, they do parallel with human loss, and those are uh denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and then acceptance. And those are the overarching uh stages, and there’s fluidity both with adults and with children. We don’t start with one, it’s not a sequential kind of process. But uh one thing I know y you might be interested in hearing about is uh a grief-related, you know, what’s the normal kind of grief after a pet dies? But with so many of your pet parents in your practice, Randy, uh you’re also dealing with anticipatory grief. And anticipatory grief, so that’s more of a category than than a stage. Uh not everybody goes through that, of course, because that’s related to pets that are um, you know, quite ill. And it’s it’s it’s related, of course, to, you know, medical conditions. And the difference between those two in anticipatory grief, uh it’s really a shock when a pet parent or the family finds out that uh their pet the the the chances of longevity or even you know the the pet living uh as you know in some days, days if not weeks, uh the the the end of their lives is coming. Right. So uh pet parents uh you know when the shock starts melting a little bit, uh they have different kinds of reactions. Some of them want to spend every waking moment with their pets. I’ve had people stop working, you know, entirely so they could spend their time with their pets. Guilt comes up, um uh you know, it it’s pre-grieving, so they’re not grieving the demise, they’re grieving the upcoming loss of having that physical to connection. So they may get even uh more physically attached to their pet and keep them with them, take them with them wherever they go. So it’s a very trying time because it’s fraught with so much uncertainty. Yeah. The when. It’s kind of the in b we call it the in-between time. Yes. They don’t know when. There’s no closure at that juncture. Not that there’s ever closure per se with grief. Sure.

SPEAKER_00: 14:00

No, and it’s I think that you you what you’re speaking about is so important because for me, um, you know, as a veterinarian of 43 years and dealing with this so often, um, it’s the idea of especially kind of setting up a uh picture for the pet parent or guardian on what to look for when the time is correct. And, you know, it’s it’s never correct as far as, you know, there’s 100% like you have to do this. But it’s all there are also situations where I have to face where I have to be the pet advocate. And looking at the pet’s quality of life, especially, and and saying, you know, uh, well, they say, well, he’s still eating, you know, but he can’t get up and he’s urinating on himself, and he’s, you know, he’s not. I mean, don’t get me wrong, a 17-year-old dog is not a two-year-old dog, so they’re not gonna have that quality of life that we talk about. Um, but one of the things that I’ve been speaking to on all of these podcasts is is health span. We want them to be healthy in the time that they have and live kind of the quality that they have for that time in their life. And it makes it very difficult. There’s no clear cut a lot of times. That’s right. So that makes it really hard. And I think that this kind of moves us into the next question, which is you know, the guilt of making a decision about euthanasia and the quality of life. Um, you know, I this can be an excruciating choice for people. And from my experience, the decision, you know, to euthanize is m often the last most difficult act of love, you know, a pet parent performs. Um, you know, I often sense guilt of I gave up too soon, or um, you know, how can and I think we need to talk about how pets, pet owners or guardians can navigate this process, especially it being so difficult. So maybe you could speak to that a little bit.

SPEAKER_01: 15:51

Sure. And I agree with you. It’s one of the most complex aspects uh of grief and loss uh to add to what you just said. Uh some say they um, you know, they did it too soon, but the the other side of the coin is I waited too long. And uh it takes, and the word I use with my clients is it takes a lot of courage uh to be able to put their pets’ needs before their own. Of course, when we’re in love with our pets, we don’t want to imagine them dying. We and to make that decision, I will have clients say, and even in the literature, some of it says, I killed my dog. And they’ll come in, and many will come in to uh reach out for support because they have euthanized and they are dealing with tremendous guilt and shame and and a host of other emotions. There’s no one way to navigate this where you can make this pain completely go away. And what I do with clients is try to normalize everything, but I really try to normalize this part that they’re not alone, that the pet parents who are confronted with the decision as to when to euthanize, uh that everybody struggles with this. And if I uh could say what is at the core of the core of the core of what one needs to do, uh I would say it’s forgive oneself.

SPEAKER_00: 17:31

That’s that’s beautiful. Yeah, I love that.

SPEAKER_01: 17:34

And uh, you know, that kind of melts people a little bit. It it it takes some of the uh pressure of blame off of them, but it is true, you know. And when people getting back to the stages of grief, they can be locked into anger, and I know you and your staff can be the targets of that anger, um, but some just internalize the anger towards themselves. So the strategies that I recommend, one that I find very profound, I’ve done it with my own pets in the past, uh, is to write a goodbye letter to their pet. Oh, I love that. And um, it’s very hard to do. I make sure I tell people they don’t have to do it in one sitting, they can do it a sentence at a time, and they can pour their hearts out and share with their pet uh maybe their reasons for doing this. They can ask their pet forgiveness if they feel that that would help them to modulate their grief even more. Uh so that’s just that’s one strategy. And talking to friends about it, getting into a grief support group uh where that topic absolutely is going to come up about euthanizing their pets and listening to others share their stories and bearing witness to what people say. We don’t even have to talk to get some benefit from being in in a group such as that.

SPEAKER_00: 19:00

Yeah, I agree. And you know, um, I tell my my uh clients, my pet parents, that um euthanasia is a real blessing in veterinary medicine. Um we know so many people in our lives on the human side that you know suffered terribly with you know with the last few weeks or months of their life when you know we know it doesn’t have to be that way. Um and of course all the moral ramifications come in with that with human side. But you know, it’s like um I also tell people that I get asked, uh I have been asked, it hasn’t happened recently, thank God, but you know, I’m moving out of town and I don’t want to take my pet and I don’t want to give it up for adoption, so I want to put it to sleep. And um I I just won’t do that. I mean, I, you know, I’ve said no, um, and it, you know, it sounds very kind of heartless sometimes, but it’s really not fair to the pet, you know, and I do everything I can to work on. Well, let’s see if we can find somebody who might, you know, be able to handle this situation or so it doesn’t, you know, just get turned into a humane society or shelter. Um and we try to make those connections for people and whatnot, but I will not do you know that to me it that’s unethical. And and I just won’t do that. But also um, you know, what’s really nice now, and I was going to mention this, but I don’t know if it would come up later, but you know, we also have a lot of groups now that um the veterinarians will come to the home and do a home euthanasia. And I never mind doing that here at the practice. In fact, at Pause, we have a special room called the Comfort Room where it’s basically quiet. There’s not an exam table there, everything is done on the floor or on the sofa. Uh, you know, we go through the processes that people can be with or not be with their pets. Uh, but but I also tell them in my world now, the home euthanasia has really lend it another level of comfort because the other pets could be there if you want them to be. You know, the children, and that we’re going to talk about this, of course, can be there. So um it really um it’s really helped us a lot to have this. And I I know a lot of veterinarians who are or are retired who basically do this um now as you know, as kind of a method to, you know, phase out the last parts of their career. So kind of nice to have that around.

SPEAKER_01: 21:29

Yes, absolutely. And I know young veterinarians, and that is their exclusive practice. And some of the literature even says that it’s a preference to have pets die at home. It’s a preference for the pet, the smells, the surroundings, and as you have said so aptly, the entire family can be there. It’s less intrusive than you know, bringing that the whole family to your comfort room. Um I’m sure you know you accommodate that, but uh it it’s a different experience. Sure. Yeah. And just to add to your list, uh you know, so you’re when thinking euthanasia, uh uh there’s the practical implications, the ethical that you just mentioned, and then there’s the emotional spiritual side of things. Um but getting back to the um the ethical, some pet parents, it comes down to money and resources, you know. Yes. And they’ve run out of money, and yes, they can wait it out, but they’re fearful of how the the actual death is going to go. So it’s it’s nuanced. It’s not always so clear-cut when the right time would be, as you know. Um, but I you know, I really appreciate your values, Randy, that you know your limits and your boundaries, what you’re willing to do and what you’re not willing to do.

SPEAKER_00: 22:56

Yeah, it’s it’s so difficult. And uh you mentioned the the financial part of it. You know, veterinary medicine is still a single payer out-of-pocket uh deal for most people. You know, we we do have things like care credit and stuff like that. Um, but you know, we’ve never been in a situation at pause where we’ve had a client uh who, let’s say, couldn’t afford to do what they wanted to do and not make that happen. Um we have, you know, we have we have a fund that we can use. We there we’re part of an independent veterinary group, you know. So many of these our practices are now corporate practices where these decisions are not made locally. You know, I can still make those decisions on a day-to-day basis however I want. And that makes me thrilled. Yes. We we we get in a situation where every day we get offers to buy our practice and it’s not gonna happen. I’m not gonna do that because I like that. So you yeah, you you bring up the financial, but it, you know, it doesn’t always have to be a barrier. And there are you know organizations and groups that help people. So um, you know, we it you know, make sure that that gets researched. Make sure that’s not a reason for why it’s not happening for you.

SPEAKER_01: 24:05

Right, exactly. And then in the in-between uh other pieces, palliative care that sometimes uh, you know, going to that first may help people because there’s a lot of burnout with caretakers. You know, people will, you know, get into a posture of devoting their entire lives to the caretaking, and there can be, you know, many, many physical needs that have to be accommodated. So that if it gets protracted and goes on for a long time, that can be really hard for caretakers.

SPEAKER_00: 24:40

Yep. And you know, we um we we have we offer hospice uh not specifically at our practice to keep the animals here because we don’t have that kind of staffing, but hospice care where uh a technician can come to the house. If things need to be administered uh by injection and the owner cannot do that, we we try to help. So, you know, there are lots of there are a lot of options, and there are a lot of veterinary practices that will do this. So, you know, if you’re having trouble in the situation you’re in, uh maybe seek another, you know, another option because they there are they are out there. Don’t let that limit you know what you have to do or or how you feel you need to act with this. Good point, Randy. So um another thing we wanted to talk about was bonding and attachment styles and you know how they influence uh how an adult grieves. And um, I know, you know, can we talk about uh in the context of human-to-human relationships and are these kind of attachment styles relevant to the human-pet relationship?

SPEAKER_01: 25:41

I’m so glad you asked that, because the answer is yes, they are. So in human relationships, uh, and I’m not gonna define these in uh in any detail, uh, there are pretty much uh three major attachment styles. One is a uh a very stable style where it’s quite balanced. One is uh are people who are anxiously attached and they may need much more attention and they may be a little bit more clingy in relationships. And then there are the avoidance styles. And avoidant people in human-to-human relationships, they take care of their own needs more, they’re more in they tend to be more introverted, and they don’t process uh they they’re not as attentive to relationships. So the as the research has shown, people who are anxiously attached tend to bond more with their pets, and people who are more avoidant tend to be a little more reluct removed in their uh bonding style to their pets. But if I could put the uh bonding styles into three different groups, the first would be people who are, and you you’ll see, I know you see all three of these, you’ll recognize it. The first group are people who are conventionally uh bonded with their pets. They take good care of their pets, um they’re loving people, they make sure they do all the follow-up, you know, with with their vets, they’re cared for, all of that, but there’s not a a deep emotional attachment. And those may be the people, and uh where I can weave back and forth, who may be ready for euthanizing their pets than the other two groups that I’m about to mention. The second group are people who are um it’s called intensely bonded. These are the people who really don’t call their their pets uh pets. They call them children. These are part of their families. Uh they take them everywhere. They, you know, if they have two human children and one pet, that they tell people, I’ve got three children. You know, one just happens to have four legs. So they’re very, very deeply attached, and they will spend a lot of money and sometimes more than they can afford to go to every length to keep that pet alive. And then the third one, which is a little hard to describe, but I’m going to give a pretty profound example of it uh from a client situation, they’re called uniquely bonded. So all the criteria I mentioned with intensely bonded is the same, but uh people in this category uh might be the ones, as you’ve talked about earlier, who might become suicidal. They really are cannot imagine functioning uh without their pet with them. And I have had clients like that even in the last year. And those people tend to get along better with pets than they do with people or and or they prefer their their pets to people. The most extreme example that I ever saw was somebody who it was a man actually, whose cat died, and he uh had a he had a vet come to his home and uh one part of her role is to take the bodies away, and he could not give the body up. And he would put his cat in the freezer and then take it out at nighttime to pet the cat, have it the cat on his lap. And uh this went on for actually months, you know, and he would put it back in the freezer before thawed and and forgive me if your audience if that uh sounds, you know, kind of harsh and severe, but that’s an extreme example of that. And he had a wife who was a therapist who was so wise, and what she did was kind of a behavioral approach. She started filling the freezer up with food and more and more and more food. So it became got to a point where there was no more room. She did very slowly over a period of months. But it’s a it’s a very uh you know, all three, uh we all fit into th you know, one of those three. And it can differ based on uh our our connection with an individual pet. So we don’t bond to the same pet, to different pets in the same way.

SPEAKER_00: 30:37

Yeah. Oh, that makes perfectly good sense. Wow, those are I mean great examples, and thank you for spelling that out for people showing, illustrating that for people, because um, you know, sometimes people, it’s hard for them to believe that this happens, but yes, you know, you and I see it. So it’s it’s really good to make sure that people understand that it they can and that we’re aware of it, and that there’s help for this situation. So I think that’s really, really important. So let’s talk a little bit about uh the surviving pet, because this is something that I often get questions about. Um, you know, the segment is fascinating because, you know, how do you know we you know we know pets grieve uh when there’s another pet in the household, especially when that household pet passes? Um it’s accepted in most circles that they feel love and they need animal, you know, they’re they’re they need and they’re they’re sentient beings. So what happens to the other pets in the household when another pet dies? Can you talk about that a little bit?

SPEAKER_01: 31:34

Sure. That can be very difficult for the remaining pets. Uh these are their siblings, whether they’re from the same litter or not. You know, that’s how they, you know, most most pets who cohabitate you know, connect to siblings, as you know. And um uh one thing I recommend to people if I see them before they have already some people want to get rid of all the the deceased pets’ belongings, and I recommend keep them out as long as you can, because the scent that the surviving pet uh is able to uh still have in the house will will definitely help them with their grief. But their symptoms that happen, and I’ll be talking about children in a little bit, but with pets, they can become incontinent. They can cry out loud, they can uh get clingy. They may, you know, if they’re not a pet, for example, that sleeps in the bed, they may kind of insist they want to sleep in the bed with the with their pet parents. Um it’s very, very difficult. And I recommend to pet parents that they spend more time with with their uh remaining pet than maybe they usually would. Even when you’re grieving and it’s hard, you want to really just focus on yourself, and that’s natural, but the remaining pets really need your your comfort and your care. I remember I’ll give a quick little story. My when my um most f favorite golden retriever died, uh, and we were planning to euthanize, and we were fortunate we didn’t have to because he died the night before we had that planned. But we had a little party. But it wasn’t for the pet parents for me to get that support as much as I wanted my dog and my dog’s friends to come come together. And uh we all these, you know, all the dogs, there may have been four or five of them, came over, they said their goodbyes, and um just a little sidebar, it was very interesting. They were uh my pet was in a little bed outside, and the dogs got very close, and then they recoiled, and I believe that it’s the scent of cancer or impending death, is that possible? That would that would make them, you know, jump away. But it was I don’t know how much my dog was able to uh appreciate that connection, uh you know, because he was really dying at that juncture. But it was it was helpful both for the pet parents uh and the community to see how you know I was trying to model that for other parents and for the dogs themselves. So I’m glad you asked me that question. It’s definitely important.

SPEAKER_00: 34:30

Yeah, we see it. Uh we see it all the time in our practice. And you know, people come in and they go, God, my my cat just hasn’t been the same since my dog passed away. And and you know, um this this doesn’t make any sense. And I explained to them that it does make a lot of sense, and they they totally are in the grieving process. And you know, we do a lot of things to redirect and and help uh you know the new the other pet that’s in the family or the pets that are in the family. So I’m really glad we mentioned this.

SPEAKER_01: 34:58

You know, sharing the toys with the remaining pet, the deceased tets pets’ toys will of course absolutely have their scent. A lot of people are tempted to wash everything right away because you know there may have been soiling and things such as that. But um it can be really helpful and for children and even adults sometimes.

SPEAKER_00: 35:21

Sure, sure. Well, we know that the pheromones and the smells exist and and many of them are you know not perceptible to us, but we know they’re there. So it’s very important. Yeah, I absolutely agree with you. So um, and then the next question that comes up so often is the new pet dilemma. You know, I have so many clients that will come and go, Oh, you know, this is my last dog. I can’t do this anymore. And, you know, and I said, you know, uh I understand how you feel. Uh I will tell you as a pet person, that’s going to be very difficult to kind of adhere to that situation, and things will change. The universe sometimes brings another pet into our lives or opportunities. But, you know, then they ask, like, well, what is the the right time? Is there is there a right or wrong way when timing comes? Uh so you know, some people may feel you know guilty about this for their love for their last pet. And, you know, I think that those are things that I know you have to address. So maybe you could speak to that a little bit too.

SPEAKER_01: 36:17

Sure. So of course, as you know, there’s no one paradigm. There’s, you know, there’s there’s not uh one way to do this that’s right. It’s each individual family has to figure this out for themselves. And it should be a decision uh made by you know the whole family. And that gets that gets really tricky. I had a client, brand new client last night, and um she was ready to um she wants to get a pet, and the kids are pushing for pets, and her husband is saying, absolutely not. You know, I will never ever get another pet again, and I have said that to myself as well.

SPEAKER_00: 37:01

Some people we we’ve all we’ve all been there by me. We’ve all been there. Right.

SPEAKER_01: 37:07

And sometimes uh people will get a pet, I’m sure you’ve seen this, before their other pet dies. They can’t bear the thought of being uh alone without an animal companion in their homes. And uh uh I am not one to judge that. Um what it tends to do is to preempt the grieving process. Some people will never grieve. It’s not so different from uh some, you know, in in human lives, not so different from someone who, you know, maybe ending a relationship and they find someone else before they have to, you know, they want to say goodbye. So people don’t like to be alone. Um I want to I’ll use a metaphor as a way of helping people try to gauge their readiness, because you know, you’ll ask, well, what are the symptoms of readiness? And if we think of grief as as a rock, and at the very beginning, when it’s very, very raw, and we’re we have this we have this rock in our pocket, let’s say it’s a humongous pocket, and it’s all it feels like a boulder. It’s so so weighty and so heavy. And gradually, as time moves on, as one gets support for their grief, um the life gets bigger and the rock gets smaller and smaller. It will never ever go away to the point where one does not have to wait till that rock becomes uh it will never be invisible, but even if it becomes a tiny pebble, one doesn’t have to wait for that. But when life feels fuller, when somebody can acknowledge I’m not getting this pet to replace my last pet, there’s no sense of replacing. We certainly don’t have that in you know in human loss at all, but it’s really I am ready to love again. I feel ready to love again. And one more thing I’ll add, which is can be really sure tricky, it’s going backwards a tiny bit. Uh people who have multiple animals, when there’s an attachment to one more than the other, and when the one they’re most attached to dies first, they will say to me in in our in in in confidence, uh, I wish my other pet had died first. I can’t bear the thought. And I just, you know, try to comfort them and say, those are your real feelings. You don’t have to, you don’t need to say that to everybody, not everyone will understand that, but those are real emotions, and uh and uh I validate those for people. So that’s all of These are nuanced and and tough kinds of things. But in summary, there’s no right time, but be mindful of what does the family want collectively. Can you get on the same page with that? And respect your deceased pet. Give some time to grieving. And what how much time? I can’t define that for individuals. Sure.

SPEAKER_00: 40:27

Sure. Yeah. Makes sense. So let’s talk about kids. We we did mention that. And um, you know, um my understanding is that adults can cope differently uh from kid, you know, from kids with this kind of loss. You know, some uh parents don’t really know how to talk to their kids about this. And you know, the adults are grieving themselves, so to share with the kids can be really hard. How should we talk to them? What you know, what what do you suggest? And and I know it differs in different ages, so maybe we could just briefly talk, touch those, those two if we could.

SPEAKER_01: 40:56

Sure, sure. So this is such an important topic for people who have children of all ages. Um, the more the overarching thing I want to say is the more honest we can be with our children about what happened. Uh uh it’s going to be setting a blueprint for how children handled future deaths and future losses in their lives. You know, a physical death is a obviously a primary loss, the loss of uh a job or a l loss of a love relationship, those are called secondary losses. But often with children, and I’m speaking w it well, it can be any age, uh often a pet is the first loss for a child or even an adolescent. So what you do to set that blueprint and pave the way is to be um uh very authentic. Let your children see you grieve. If you are, you know, someone who you know is in hysterics, you may want to come out and let them see tears, but you don’t want to frighten them. And so with very, very young children, let’s say one to three, their level of understanding, of course, is very minimal. What they will sense is they’ll they are always reading the temperature in the home. And the grief temperature they will absolutely read. If they see their anxious parents more anxious, that infant is gonna be, or even you know, toddlers gonna become very anxious as well. So giving them a lot of attention, trying not to uh change routines, keeping things as structured as you usually do. Then as they get older, let’s let’s jump to uh like ten to twelve, they obviously know that the body parts you can say very directly, uh Joey’s body stopped working. And you can make it the analogy like with a clock. You know, some people may have you know clocks on the wall that tick. When and just like a clock stops ticking, um Joey’s heart stopped ticking, and it’s not gonna work anymore, and we’re not going to see Joey anymore. And uh that can make children very anxious. You have to be clear about that. But what can you do about that? You can have them draw pictures, you can weave them into the memorial service. Some parents don’t want to do that, and it totally, you know, I respect that. And parents, it is your choice whether you want to do that or not. But the more involved the whole family can be, there’s that sense of community that’s being built. So older kids, let’s say the ages I just mentioned, let’s say nine to twelve, they may act out and they may get into fights at school, they may, they themselves may become incontinent, they may uh be more aggressive, they may be a problem more at school than at home, it may feel too risky to do it at home, but there’s a natural acting out that is normal for them. And parents, the best thing you can do is is accept it, don’t respond in a punitive way, but you know, you can help them identify, let’s say, their anger and say, um, sometimes when we’re really anger we’re really angry since Joey died, that really makes a lot of sense. And then we get to the adolescents who grieve, you know, pretty much the same as adults, and they can retreat from adults. And the most important thing for adolescents who have pet losses is to find other peers. The peer group is so much more important. Find peers who are grieving as well. Um, but it’s it’s a tough time. The other thing that I can’t forget to mention are trying not to use euphemisms. And what do I mean by euphemisms? Uh Joey went to heaven. Joey’s with God now. Uh you know, there’s so many I could think of, I’m not thinking of any at the moment. But not sure. Not not saying would do you have one in mind that you could add to my list?

SPEAKER_00: 45:33

No, I don’t think so. I think that I mean, there like you said, there there are so many, and um there are not a lot coming to my mind at the moment either, but that’s uh a function of my age at this point.

SPEAKER_01: 45:42

Yeah. Oh, I thought of one, and I’m there’s a connection why I want to say this, which is um Joey went to sleep and won’t be waking up.

SPEAKER_00: 45:53

Oh wow, that’s a good thing.

SPEAKER_01: 45:54

The problem with that one, as you can surmise, is that child under 10 is gonna be terrified of going to sleep at night. Maybe their parents are going to die when they go to sleep. Yes.

unknown: 46:08

Yes.

SPEAKER_01: 46:09

When we jump to adolescence and adults, uh they’re struggling with their own mortality becomes more real after they lose, you know, lose a pet. Really older adults will feel that more, but losing other people in their lives becomes heightened. And the other thing that happens with with pet loss for many, you know, I’m flipping back and forth between children and adults, sometimes with human losses, we don’t aren’t even consciously aware of this, but we may not be finished with our grief, let’s say, even for another pet or a person. And when we have a new loss, like a new pet loss, somebody can experience extraordinarily intense grief. They may not even have been in that category, and they’ll come in and say to me, What’s, you know, I don’t understand. I can’t believe that I’m ex, you know, being uh I’m so incredibly um bereft at what’s going on. And I’ll I’ll often, if not always, ask, How have you handled, have you had other losses in your life? This is more for adults, so I’m switching to that. Sure. But adolescents too. How have you handled other losses? And some might say, I never really got over that loss. So there may be two different losses that you’re, you know, I will be coping with at the same time. Makes sense. So it’s hard. Make sense. And and to be sensitive to different age groups is really important. Reading to young children about uh loss, there are at the Association of Pet for Pet Loss and Breatement, they will give a list of children’s books that are helpful. So through picture books would be the way to help children the most. And drawing pictures, as I said.

SPEAKER_00: 48:04

Oh man, I tell you, this is so powerful. And um what an important, important topic. And I only hope that uh people will will take have a good take home from half of what we’ve done. And and please, you know, make sure you listen to this again and again and and share it. Bonnie, um, anything you want to leave our listeners? I know we’ve spoken about so many different things. Any any kind of last-minute thoughts?

SPEAKER_01: 48:29

Sure. What I want to really say is I’m talking, I’ve been talking today in generalities. Every person is unique, and your grief is gonna be unique to you, your situation, and to the pet that you are grieving. And there’s no so respect your own uniqueness and know that there’s not a right way to grieve. It just doesn’t work that way. And to reach out to others for support, it doesn’t have to be a professional. It could be somebody in the family. The only problem with reaching out to others in the family is uh, let’s say between two spouses, they both may be uh grieving intensely and they are they don’t have the the energy and the wherewithal to sub support one another. Uh but do reach out to your friends, post memorials online. Uh let people know that you’re needy because the more that we hide our grief, the more disenfranchised it’s going to feel. We’re going to feel very, very lonely with it. And that’s the opposite of what you need at a time like loss.

SPEAKER_00: 49:47

So um if people want to get in touch with you, is there a way that they can do that? Um or some something you’d like them to reach out. I know, I know you you’re traveling a lot in these days and whatnot, but uh is there a contact that you’d like to leave for people?

SPEAKER_01: 50:01

Sure. It would be so I uh a full disclosure, I’m mostly retired. The only private clients that I see uh are pet loss clients. And uh so I ask people to reach out to my email, and it’s bonnie mgoodman at gmail.com. B-O-N-N-I-E, M is in MaryGoodman.com.

SPEAKER_00: 50:28

And and also um we want to encourage everybody to uh you know subscribe to this YouTube channel if they listen to this and uh ask, you know, you can comment easily and share stories for me. Um if you’re listening, follow us on the the podcast app. Uh you can follow me at Instagram at drandy petvet. You can email me questions uh at askme at drrandy petvet ask me at drrandypetvet.com. We want to you know thank everyone for listening. If you have questions in the future, we can bring those to that ask me site. That would be great. But also, you know, pass it on to your friends and your your family members because this is this is so important. It doesn’t get talked about enough. And the fact that someone like Bonnie Goodman is in our lives that can and can talk about this and encourage us and share all the information she did today. Um, it’s so fabulous. So um, Bonnie, thank you so so much for being here. You’re welcome, Randy. I miss delight. I miss you, and we want to wish you a best on your on your Asia trip coming up. And uh hoping that we can get together when you get back. That would be you too. You too.

SPEAKER_01: 51:40

Thanks again, everyone. Yeah. Thank you.